Is the Scala 2 8 collections library a case of the longest suicide note in history

Question

I have just started to look at the Scala collections library re-implementation which is coming in the imminent 2 8 release  Those familiar with the library from 2 7 will notice that the library  from a usage perspective  has changed little  For example      gt  List  Paris    London   map   length  res0  List Int  List 5  6       would work in either versions  The library is eminently useable  in fact it s fantastic  However  those previously unfamiliar with Scala and poking around to get a feel for the language now have to make sense of method signatures like   def map B  That  f  A   gt  B  implicit bf  CanBuildFrom Repr  B  That    That   For such simple functionality  this is a daunting signature and one which I find myself struggling to understand  Not that I think Scala was ever likely to be the next Java  or  C C   C   - I don t believe its creators were aiming it at that market - but I think it is was certainly feasible for Scala to become the next Ruby or Python  i e  to gain a significant commercial user-base    Is this going to put people off coming to Scala  Is this going to give Scala a bad name in the commercial world as an academic plaything that only dedicated PhD students can understand  Are CTOs and heads of software going to get scared off  Was the library re-design a sensible idea  If you re using Scala commercially  are you worried about this  Are you planning to adopt 2 8 immediately or wait to see what happens    Steve Yegge once attacked Scala  mistakenly in my opinion  for what he saw as its overcomplicated type-system  I worry that someone is going to have a field day spreading FUD with this API  similarly to how Josh Bloch scared the JCP out of adding closures to Java    Note - I should be clear that  whilst I believe that Joshua Bloch was influential in the rejection of the BGGA closures proposal  I don t ascribe this to anything other than his honestly-held beliefs that the proposal represented a mistake     Despite whatever my wife and coworkers keep telling me  I don t think I m an idiot  I have a good degree in mathematics from the University of Oxford  and I ve been programming commercially for almost 12 years and in Scala for about a year  also commercially    Note the inflammatory subject title is a quotation made about the manifesto of a UK political party in the early 1980s  This question is subjective but it is a genuine question  I ve made it CW and I d like some opinions on the matter

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One way that the Scala community can help ease the fear of programmers new to Scala is to focus on practice and to teach by example--a lot of examples that start small and grow gradually larger. Here are a few sites that take this approach:

After spending some time on these sites, one quickly realizes that Scala and its libraries, though perhaps difficult to design and implement, are not so difficult to use, especially in the common cases.

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I don t know how to break it to you  but I have a PhD from Cambridge  and I m using 2 8 just fine   More seriously  I hardly spent any time with 2 7  it won t inter-op with a Java library I am using  and started using Scala just over a month ago  I have some experience with Haskell  not much   but just ignored the stuff you re worried about and looked for methods that matched my experience with Java  which I use for a living     So  I am a  new user  and I wasn t put off - the fact that it works like Java gave me enough confidence to ignore the bits I didn t understand    However  the reason I was looking at Scala was partly to see whether to push it at work  and I am not going to do so yet   Making the documentation less intimidating would certainly help  but what surprised me is how much it is still changing and being developed  to be fair what surprised me most was how awesome it is  but the changes came a close second    So I guess what I am saying is that I d rather prefer the limited resources were put into getting it into a final state - I don t think they were expecting to be this popular this soon

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I hope it s not a  suicide note   but I can see your point  You hit on what is at the same time both a strength and a problem of Scala  its extensibility  This lets us implement most major functionality in libraries  In some other languages  sequences with something like map or collect would be built in  and nobody has to see all the hoops the compiler has to go through to make them work smoothly  In Scala  it s all in a library  and therefore out in the open   In fact the functionality of map that s supported by its complicated type is pretty advanced  Consider this   scala gt  import collection immutable BitSet import collection immutable BitSet  scala gt  val bits   BitSet 1  2  3  bits  scala collection immutable BitSet   BitSet 1  2  3   scala gt  val shifted   bits map       1   shifted  scala collection immutable BitSet   BitSet 2  3  4   scala gt  val displayed   bits map     toString         displayed  scala collection immutable Set java lang String    Set 1   2   3     See how you always get the best possible type  If you map Ints to Ints you get again a BitSet  but if you map Ints to Strings  you get a general Set  Both the static type and the runtime representation of map s result depend on the result type of the function that s passed to it  And this works even if the set is empty  so the function is never applied  As far as I know there is no other collection framework with an equivalent functionality  Yet from a user perspective this is how things are supposed to work   The problem we have is that all the clever technology that makes this happen leaks into the type signatures which become large and scary  But maybe a user should not be shown by default the full type signature of map  How about if she looked up map in BitSet she got   map f  Int   gt  Int   BitSet      click here for more general type    The docs would not lie in that case  because from a user perspective indeed map has the type  Int   gt  Int    gt  BitSet  But map also has a more general type which can be inspected by clicking on another link   We have not yet implemented functionality like this in our tools  But I believe we need to do this  to avoid scaring people off and to give more useful info  With tools like that  hopefully smart frameworks and libraries will not become suicide notes

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Don t know Scala at all  however a few weeks ago I could not read Clojure  Now I can read most of it  but can not write anything yet beyond the most simplistic examples  I suspect Scala is no different  You need a good book or course depending on how you learn  Just reading the map declaration above  I got maybe 1 3 of it    I believe the bigger problems are not the syntax of these languages  but adopting and internalizing the paradigms that make them usable in everyday production code  For me Java was not a huge leap from C    which was not a huge leap from C  which was not a leap at all from Pascal  nor Basic etc    But coding in a functional language like Clojure is a huge leap  for me anyway   I guess in Scala you can code in Java style or Scala style  But in Clojure you will create quite the mess trying to keep your imperative habits from Java

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I m a Scala beginner and I honestly don t see a problem with that type signature  The parameter is the function to map and the implicit parameter the builder to return the correct collection  Clear and readable   The whole thing s quite elegant  actually  The builder type parameters let the compiler choose the correct return type while the implicit parameter mechanism hides this extra parameter from the class user  I tried this   Map 1 - gt   a   2 - gt   b   map  t    gt   t  2  - gt   t  1      returns Map  a  - gt  1   b  - gt  2  Map 1 - gt   a   2 - gt   b   map  t    gt   t  2                returns List  a    b     That s polymorphism done right    Now  granted  it s not a mainstream paradigm and it will scare away many  But  it will also attract many who value its expressiveness and elegance

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I totally agree with both the question and Martin s answer     Even in Java  reading javadoc with generics is much harder than it should be due to the extra noise  This is compounded in Scala where implicit parameters are used as in the questions s example code  while the implicits do very useful collection-morphing stuff    I don t think its a problem with the language per se - I think its more a tooling issue  And while I agree with what J  rg W Mittag says  I think looking at scaladoc  or the documentation of a type in your IDE  - it should require as little brain power as possible to grok what a method is  what it takes and returns  There shouldn t be a need to hack up a bit of algebra on a bit of paper to get it     For sure IDEs need a nice way to show all the methods for any variable expression type  which as with Martin s example can have all the generics inlined so its nice and easy to grok   I like Martin s idea of hiding the implicits by default too   To take the example in scaladoc     def map B  That  f  A   gt  B  implicit bf  CanBuildFrom Repr  B  That    That   When looking at this in scaladoc I d like the generic block  B  That  to be hidden by default as well as the implicit parameter  maybe they show if you hover a little icon with the mouse  - as its extra stuff to grok reading it which usually isn t that relevant  e g  imagine if this looked like     def map f  A   gt  B   That   nice and clear and obvious what it does  You might wonder what  That  is  if you mouse over or click it it could expand the  B  That  text highlighting the  That  for example    Maybe a little icon could be used for the    declaration and  implicit     block so its clear there are little bits of the statement collapsed  Its hard to use a token for it  but I ll use a   for now     def map  f  A   gt  B    That   So by default the  noise  of the type system is hidden from the main 80  of what folks need to look at - the method name  its parameter types and its return type in nice simple concise way - with little expandable links to the detail if you really care that much   Mostly folks are reading scaladoc to find out what methods they can call on a type and what parameters they can pass  We re kinda overloading users with way too much detail right how IMHO   Here s another example     def orElse A1  lt   A  B1  gt   B  that  PartialFunction A1  B1    PartialFunction A1  B1    Now if we hid the generics declaration its easier to read  def orElse that  PartialFunction A1  B1    PartialFunction A1  B1    Then if folks hover over  say  A1 we could show the declaration of A1 being A1  lt   A  Covariant and contravariant types in generics add lots of noise too which can be rendered in a much easier to grok way to users I think

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What about error messages in use site   And what about when comes the use case one needs to integrate existing types with a custom one that fits a DSL  One have to be well educated on matters of association  precedence  implicit conversions  implicit parameters  higher kinds  and maybe existential types   It s very good to know that mostly it s simple but it s not necessarily enough  At least there must be one guy who knows this stuff if widespread library is to be designed

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Is this going to put people off coming to Scala    Yes  but it will also prevent people from being put off   I ve considered the lack of collections that use higher-kinded types to be a major weakness ever since Scala gained support for higher-kinded types   It make the API docs more complicated  but it really makes usage more natural      Is this going to give scala a bad name in the commercial world as an academic plaything that only dedicated PhD students can understand  Are CTOs and heads of software going to get scared off    Some probably will   I don t think Scala is accessible to many  professional  developers  partially due to the complexity of Scala and partly due to the unwillingness of many developers to learn   The CTOs who employ such developers will rightly be scared off      Was the library re-design a sensible idea    Absolutely   It makes collections fit much better with the rest of the language and the type system  even if it still has some rough edges      If you re using scala commercially  are you worried about this  Are you planning to adopt 2 8 immediately or wait to see what happens    I m not using it commercially   I ll probably wait until at least a couple revs into the 2 8 x series before even trying to introduce it so that the bugs can be flushed out   I ll also wait to see how much success EPFL has in improving its development a release processes   What I m seeing looks hopeful  but I work for a conservative company   One the more general topic of  is Scala too complicated for mainstream developers       Most developers  mainstream or otherwise  are maintaining or extending existing systems   This means that most of what they use is dictated by decisions made long ago   There are still plenty of people writing COBOL   Tomorrow s mainstream developer will work maintaining and extending the applications that are being built today   Many of these applications are not being built by mainstream developers   Tomorrow s mainstream developers will use the language that is being used by today s most successful developers of new applications

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I do not have a PhD  nor any other kind of degree neither in CS nor math nor indeed any other field  I have no prior experience with Scala nor any other similar language  I have no experience with even remotely comparable type systems  In fact  the only language that I have more than just a superficial knowledge of which even has a type system is Pascal  not exactly known for its sophisticated type system   Although it does have range types  which AFAIK pretty much no other language has  but that isn t really relevant here   The other three languages I know are BASIC  Smalltalk and Ruby  none of which even have a type system   And yet  I have no trouble at all understanding the signature of the map function you posted  It looks to me like pretty much the same signature that map has in every other language I have ever seen  The difference is that this version is more generic  It looks more like a C   STL thing than  say  Haskell  In particular  it abstracts away from the concrete collection type by only requiring that the argument is IterableLike  and also abstracts away from the concrete return type by only requiring that an implicit conversion  function exists which can build something out of that collection of result values  Yes  that is quite complex  but it really is only an expression of the general paradigm of generic programming  do not assume anything that you don t actually have to   In this case  map does not actually need the collection to be a list  or being ordered or being sortable or anything like that  The only thing that map cares about is that it can get access to all elements of the collection  one after the other  but in no particular order  And it does not need to know what the resulting collection is  it only needs to know how to build it  So  that is what its type signature requires   So  instead of  map     a   b     a     b    which is the traditional type signature for map  it is generalized to not require a concrete List but rather just an IterableLike data structure  map     IterableLike i  IterableLike j     a   b    i   j   which is then further generalized by only requiring that a function exists that can convert the result to whatever data structure the user wants   map    IterableLike i    a   b    i     b    c    c   I admit that the syntax is a bit clunkier  but the semantics are the same  Basically  it starts from   def map B  f   A    B   List B    which is the traditional signature for map   Note how due to the object-oriented nature of Scala  the input list parameter vanishes  because it is now the implicit receiver parameter that every method in a single-dispatch OO system has   Then it generalized from a concrete List to a more general IterableLike  def map B  f   A    B   IterableLike B    Now  it replaces the IterableLike result collection with a function that produces  well  really just about anything   def map B  That  f  A   B  implicit bf  CanBuildFrom Repr  B  That    That   Which I really believe is not that hard to understand  There s really only a couple of intellectual tools you need    You need to know  roughly  what map is  If you gave only the type signature without the name of the method  I admit  it would be a lot harder to figure out what is going on  But since you already know what map is supposed to do  and you know what its type signature is supposed to be  you can quickly scan the signature and focus on the anomalies  like  why does this map take two functions as arguments  not one   You need to be able to actually read the type signature  But even if you have never seen Scala before  this should be quite easy  since it really is just a mixture of type syntaxes you already know from other languages  VB NET uses square brackets for parametric polymorphism  and using an arrow to denote the return type and a colon to separate name and type  is actually the norm  You need to know roughly what generic programming is about   Which isn t that hard to figure out  since it s basically all spelled out in the name  it s literally just programming in a generic fashion     None of these three should give any professional or even hobbyist programmer a serious headache  map has been a standard function in pretty much every language designed in the last 50 years  the fact that different languages have different syntax should be obvious to anyone who has designed a website with HTML and CSS and you can t subscribe to an even remotely programming related mailinglist without some annoying C   fanboy from the church of St  Stepanov explaining the virtues of generic programming   Yes  Scala is complex  Yes  Scala has one of the most sophisticated type systems known to man  rivaling and even surpassing languages like Haskell  Miranda  Clean or Cyclone  But if complexity were an argument against success of a programming language  C   would have died long ago and we would all be writing Scheme  There are lots of reasons why Scala will very likely not be successful  but the fact that programmers can t be bothered to turn on their brains before sitting down in front of the keyboard is probably not going to be the main one

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Is this going to put people off coming to Scala    I don t think it is the main factor that will affect how popular Scala will become  because Scala has a lot of power and its syntax is not as foreign to a Java C   PHP programmer as Haskell  OCaml  SML  Lisps  etc    But I do think Scala s popularity will plateau at less than where Java is today  because I also think the next mainstream language must be much simplified  and the only way I see to get there is pure immutability  i e  declarative like HTML  but Turing complete  However  I am biased because I am developing such a language  but I only did so after ruling out over a several month study that Scala could not suffice for what I needed      Is this going to give Scala a bad name in the commercial world as an academic plaything that only dedicated PhD students can understand  Are CTOs and heads of software going to get scared off    I don t think Scala s reputation will suffer from the Haskell complex  But I think that some will put off learning it  because for most programmers  I don t yet see a use case that forces them to use Scala  and they will procrastinate learning about it  Perhaps the highly-scalable server side is the most compelling use case   And  for the mainstream market  first learning Scala is not a  breath of fresh air   where one is writing programs immediately  such as first using HTML or Python  Scala tends to grow on you  after one learns all the details that one stumbles on from the start  However  maybe if I had read Programming in Scala from the start  my experience and opinion of the learning curve would have been different      Was the library re-design a sensible idea    Definitely      If you re using Scala commercially  are you worried about this  Are you planning to adopt 2 8 immediately or wait to see what happens    I am using Scala as the initial platform of my new language  I probably wouldn t be building code on Scala s collection library if I was using Scala commercially otherwise  I would create my own category theory based library  since the one time I looked  I found Scalaz s type signatures even more verbose and unwieldy than Scala s collection library  Part of that problem perhaps is Scala s way of implementing type classes  and that is a minor reason I am creating my own language     I decided to write this answer  because I wanted to force myself to research and compare Scala s collection class design to the one I am doing for my language  Might as well share my thought process   The 2 8 Scala collections use of a builder abstraction is a sound design principle  I want to explore two design tradeoffs below    WRITE-ONLY CODE  After writing this section  I read Carl Smotricz s comment which agrees with what I expect to be the tradeoff  James Strachan and davetron5000 s comments concur that the meaning of That  it is not even That B   and the mechanism of the implicit is not easy to grasp intuitively  See my use of monoid in issue  2 below  which I think is much more explicit  Derek Mahar s comment is about writing Scala  but what about reading the Scala of others that is not  in the common cases    One criticism I have read about Scala  is that it is easier to write it  than read the code that others have written  And I find this to be occasionally true for various reasons  e g  many ways to write a function  automatic closures  Unit for DSLs  etc   but I am undecided if this is major factor  Here the use of implicit function parameters has pluses and minuses  On the plus side  it reduces verbosity and automates selection of the builder object  In Odersky s example the conversion from a BitSet  i e  Set Int   to a Set String  is implicit  The unfamiliar reader of the code might not readily know what the type of collection is  unless they can reason well about the all the potential invisible implicit builder candidates which might exist in the current package scope  Of course  the experienced programmer and the writer of the code will know that BitSet is limited to Int  thus a map to String has to convert to a different collection type  But which collection type  It isn t specified explicitly  AD-HOC COLLECTION DESIGN  After writing this section  I read Tony Morris s comment and realized I am making nearly the same point  Perhaps my more verbose exposition will make the point more clear   In  Fighting Bit Rot with Types  Odersky  amp  Moors  two use cases are presented  They are the restriction of BitSet to Int elements  and Map to pair tuple elements  and are provided as the reason that the general element mapping function  A    B  must be able to build alternative destination collection types  However  afaik this is flawed from a category theory perspective  To be consistent in category theory and thus avoid corner cases  these collection types are functors  in which each morphism  A    B  must map between objects in the same functor category  List A     List B   BitSet A     BitSet B   For example  an Option is a functor that can be viewed as a collection of sets of one Some  object   and the None  There is no general map from Option s None  or List s Nil  to other functors which don t have an  empty  state   There is a tradeoff design choice made here  In the design for collections library of my new language  I chose to make everything a functor  which means if I implement a BitSet  it needs to support all element types  by using a non-bit field internal representation when presented with a non-integer type parameter  and that functionality is already in the Set which it inherits from in Scala  And Map in my design needs to map only its values  and it can provide a separate non-functor method for mapping its  key value  pair tuples  One advantage is that each functor is then usually also an applicative and perhaps a monad too  Thus all functions between element types  e g  A    B    C    D         are automatically lifted to the functions between lifted applicative types  e g  List A     List B     List C     List D          For mapping from a functor to another collection class  I offer a map overload which takes a monoid  e g  Nil  None  0      Array    etc   So the builder abstraction function is the append method of a monoid and is supplied explicitly as a necessary input parameter  thus with no invisible implicit conversions   Tangent  this input parameter also enables appending to non-empty monoids  which Scala s map design can t do   Such conversions are a map and a fold in the same iteration pass  Also I provide a traversable  in the category sense   Applicative programming with effects  McBride  amp  Patterson  which also enables map   fold in a single iteration pass from any traversable to any applicative  where most every collection class is both  Also the state monad is an applicative and thus is a fully generalized builder abstraction from any traversable   So afaics the Scala collections is  ad-hoc  in the sense that it is not grounded in category theory  and category theory is the essense of higher-level denotational semantics  Although Scala s implicit builders are at first appearance  more generalized  than a functor model   monoid builder   traversable -  applicative  they are afaik not proven to be consistent with any category  and thus we don t know what rules they follow in the most general sense and what the corner cases will be given they may not obey any category model  It is simply not true that adding more variables makes something more general  and this was one of huge benefits of category theory is it provides rules by which to maintain generality while lifting to higher-level semantics  A collection is a category   I read somewhere  I think it was Odersky  as another justification for the library design  is that programming in a pure functional style has the cost of limited recursion and speed where tail recursion isn t used  I haven t found it difficult to employ tail recursion in every case that I have encountered so far      Additionally I am carrying in my mind an incomplete idea that some of Scala s tradeoffs are due to trying to be both an mutable and immutable language  unlike for example Haskell or the language I am developing  This concurs with Tony Morris s comment about for comprehensions  In my language  there are no loops and no mutable constructs  My language will sit on top of Scala  for now  and owes much to it  and this wouldn t be possible if Scala didn t have the general type system and mutability  That might not be true though  because I think Odersky  amp  Moors   Fighting Bit Rot with Types   are incorrect to state that Scala is the only OOP language with higher-kinds  because I verified  myself and via Bob Harper  that Standard ML has them  Also appears SML s type system may be equivalently flexible  since 1980s   which may not be readily appreciated because the syntax is not so much similar to Java  and C   PHP  as Scala  In any case  this isn t a criticism of Scala  but rather an attempt to present an incomplete analysis of tradeoffs  which is I hope germane to the question  Scala and SML don t suffer from Haskell s inability to do diamond multiple inheritance  which is critical and I understand is why so many functions in the Haskell Prelude are repeated for different types

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Well  I can understand your pain  but  quite frankly  people like you and I -- or pretty much any regular Stack Overflow user -- are not the rule   What I mean by that is that    most programmers won t care about that type signature  because they ll never see them  They don t read documentation   As long as they saw some example of how the code works  and the code doesn t fail them in producing the result they expect  they won t ever look at the documentation  When that fails  they ll look at the documentation and expect to see usage examples at the top   With these things in mind  I think that    Anyone  as in  most people  who ever comes across that type signature will mock Scala to no end if they are pre-disposed against it  and will consider it a symbol of Scala s power if they like Scala  If the documentation isn t enhanced to provide usage examples and explain clearly what a method is for and how to use it  it can detract from Scala adoption a bit  In the long run  it won t matter  That Scala can do stuff like that will make libraries written for Scala much more powerful and safer to use  These libraries and frameworks will attract programmers atracted to powerful tools  Programmers who like simplicity and directness will continue to use PHP  or similar languages    Alas  Java programmers are much into power tools  so  in answering that  I have just revised my expectation of mainstream Scala adoption  I have no doubt at all that Scala will become a mainstream language  Not C-mainstream  but perhaps Perl-mainstream or PHP-mainstream   Speaking of Java  did you ever replace the class loader  Have you ever looked into what that involves  Java can be scary  if you look at the places framework writers do  It s just that most people don t  The same thing applies to Scala  IMHO  but early adopters have a tendency to look under each rock they encounter  to see if there s something hiding there

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Scala has a lot of crazy features  particularly where implicit parameters are concerned  that look very complicated and academic  but are designed to make things easy to use  The most useful ones get syntactic sugar  like  A  lt   B  which means that an object of type A has an implicit conversion to an object of type B  and a well-documented explanation of what they do  But most of the time  as a client of these libraries you can ignore the implicit parameters and trust them to do the right thing

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I have a maths degree from Oxford too  It took me a while to  get  the new collections stuff  But I like it a lot now that I do  In fact  the typing of  map  was one of the first big things that bugged me in 2 7  perhaps since the first thing I did was subclass one of the collection classes    Reading Martin s paper on the new 2 8 collections really helped explain the use of implicits  but yes the documentation itself definitely needs to do a better job of explaining the role of different kind of implicits within method signatures of core APIs   My main concern is more this  when is 2 8 going to be released  When will the bug reports stop coming in for it  have scala team bitten off more than they can chew with 2 8   tried to change too much at once   I d really like to see 2 8 stabilised for release as a priority before adding anything else new at all  and wonder  while watching from the sidelines  if some improvements could be made to the way the development roadmap for the scala compiler is managed

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I think primary problem with that method is that the  implicit bf   CanBuildFrom Repr  B  That   goes without any explanation   Even though I know what implicit arguments are there s nothing indicating how this affects the call   Chasing through the scaladoc only leaves me more confused  few of the classes related to CanBuildFrom even have documentation    I think a simple  there must be an implicit object in scope for bf that provides a builder for objects of type B into the return type That  would help somewhat  but it s kind of a heady concept when all you really want to do is map A s to B s   In fact  I m not sure that s right  because I don t know what the type Repr means  and the documentation for Traversable certainly gives no clue at all   So  I m left with two options  neither of them pleasant    Assume it will just work how the old map works and how map works in most other languages Dig into the source code some more   I get that Scala is essentially exposing the guts of how these things work and that ultimately this is provide a way to do what oxbow lakes is describing   But it s a distraction in the signature

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I have an undergraduate degree from a cheap  mass market  US university  so I d say I fall into the middle of the user intelligence  or at least education  scale    I ve been dabbling with Scala for just a few months and have worked on two or three non-trivial apps   Especially now that IntelliJ has released their fine IDE with what IMHO is currently the best Scala plugin  Scala development is relatively painless     I find I can use Scala as a  Java without semicolons   i e  I write similar-looking code to what I d do in Java  and benefit a little from syntactic brevity such as that gained by type inference  Exception handling  when I do it at all  is more convenient  Class definition is much less verbose without the getter setter boilerplate  Once in a while I manage to write a single line to accomplish the equivalent of multiple lines of Java  Where applicable  chains of functional methods like map  fold  collect  filter etc  are fun to compose and elegant to behold  Only rarely do I find myself benefitting from Scala s more high-powered features  Closures and partial  or curried  functions  pattern matching    that kinda thing    As a newbie  I continue to struggle with the terse and idiomatic syntax  Method calls without parameters don t need parentheses except where they do  cases in the match statement need a fat arrow     gt     but there are also places where you need a thin arrow   - gt     Many methods have short but rather cryptic names like    or    - I can get my stuff done if I flip enough manual pages  but some of my code ends up looking like Perl or line noise  Ironically  one of the most popular bits of syntactic shorthand is missing in action  I keep getting bitten by the fact that Int doesn t define a    method   This is just my opinion  I feel like Scala has the power of C   combined with the complexity and readability of C    The syntactic complexity of the language also makes the API documentation hard to read   Scala is very well thought out and brilliant in many respects  I suspect many an academic would love to program in it  However  it s also full of cleverness and gotchas  it has a much higher learning curve than Java and is harder to read  If I scan the fora and see how many developers are still struggling with the finer points of Java  I cannot conceive of Scala ever becoming a mainstream language  No company will be able to justify sending its developers on a 3 week Scala course when formerly they only needed a 1 week Java course

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It seems necessary to state ones degree here  B A  in Political Science and B ed in Computer Science   To the point      Is this going to put people off coming to Scala    Scala is difficult  because its underlying programming paradigm is difficult  Functional programming scares a lot of people  It is possible to build closures in PHP but people rarely  do  So no  not this signature but all the rest will put people off  if they do not have the specific education to make them value the power of the underlying paradigm   If this education is available  everyone can do it  Last year I build a chess computer with a bunch of school kids in SCALA  They had their problems but they did fine in the end      If you re using Scala commercially  are you worried about this  Are you planning to adopt 2 8 immediately or wait to see what happens    I would not be worried

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Unfortunately the signature for map that you gave is an incorrect one for map and there is indeed legitimate criticism   The first criticism is that by subverting the signature for map  we have something that is more general  It is a common error to believe that this is a virtue by default  It isn t  The map function is very well defined as a covariant functor Fx -   x -  y  -  Fy with adherence to the two laws of composition and identity  Anything else attributed to  map  is a travesty   The given signature is something else  but it is not map  What I suspect it is trying to be is a specialised and slightly altered version of the  traverse  signature from the paper  The Essence of the Iterator Pattern  Here is its signature   traverse     Traversable t  Applicative f    gt   a - gt  f b  - gt  t a - gt  f  t b    I shall convert it to Scala   def traverse A  B  f  A   gt  F B   a  T A   implicit t  Traversable T   ap  Applicative F    F T B    Of course it fails -- it is not general enough  Also  it is slightly different  note that you can get map by running traverse through the Identity functor   However  I suspect that if the library writers were more aware of library generalisations that are well documented  Applicative Programming with Effects precedes the aforementioned   then we wouldn t see this error   Second  the map function is a special-case in Scala because of its use in for-comprehensions  This unfortunately means that a library designer who is better equipped cannot ignore this error without also sacrificing the syntactic sugar of comprehensions  In other words  if the Scala library designers were to destroy a method  then this is easily ignored  but please not map   I hope someone speaks up about it  because as it is  it will become harder to workaround the errors that Scala insists on making  apparently for reasons that I have strong objections to  That is  the solution to  the irresponsible objections from the average programmer  i e  too hard    is not  appease them to make it easier for them  but instead  provide pointers and assistance to become better programmers  Myself and Scala s objectives are in contention on this issue  but back to your point   You were probably making your point  predicting specific responses from  the average programmer   That is  the people who will claim  but it is too complicated   or some such  These are the Yegges or Blochs that you refer to  My response to these people of the anti-intellectualism pragmatism movement is quite harsh and I m already anticipating a barrage of responses  so I will omit it   I truly hope the Scala libraries improve  or at least  the errors can be safely tucked away in a corner  Java is a language where  trying to do anything useful  is so incredibly costly  that it is often not worth it because the overwhelming amount of errors simply cannot be avoided  I implore Scala to not go down the same path

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Same thing in C     template  lt template  lt class  class gt  class C            class T            class A            class T return            class T arg                gt  C lt T return  typename A  rebind lt T return gt   other gt  map C lt T  A gt   amp c T return  func  T arg          C lt T return  typename A  rebind lt T return gt   other gt  res      for   C lt T A gt   iterator it c begin     it    c end    it              res push back func  it              return res

[scala] Is the Scala 2.8 collections library a case of "the longest suicide note in history"?

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